Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen, alt.philosophy.taoism
From: Ichin Shen <taichiski...@taomartialarts.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 01:48:46 GMT
Local: Wed, Jun 6 2001 5:48 am
Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
The question was "What's Zen, again?"
> but then it snowballed into more nothing...... [nothing it is,] if you did mean your answer "nez spelled backwards....." > but then a as you continued those cute circular answers, > glimmer of a discussion seem to present itself..... > it has been flickering ever it never had substance to burn. > since but never a clean burn........... > > > and are > > No, > well how should i interpret your last post which read:....."How > > > and yes i have an excellent imagination.....and > > just to see how real your "excellent sense of reality" is. Care to > i thought they were obvious....but you questioned (for some inexplicable the answer of "most folks can't" was quite obvious. Here's the quote which lead to this conclusion, Quote, Yup, a cat does that easily, as it has no illusion about mirrored > as can most folks......some do not..... I think you got that backward-some can, but most folks can't. > some do not of course.....there is a reality common to all of As Buddhas advocated, "direct comprehension" remains the core teaching > us....fire burns, we suffer from cold, we get sick and we die......that is the > reality for *all* of us.....but then there are "beliefs" which differ but have > no real effect on the reality that is common to all of us but can color your > life to some degree good or bad.....some folks believe in a god and the awards > of a heaven,(i know a few) others wait for enlightenment, (i know a few) still > others follow the path of "karma" (yes i know a few of those as > well)........and so on.....but most folks i know tend to believe what is real > and are able to separate that of belief opposed to this "real"....btw the > buddha was a hard core realist...... of Zen Buddhism. No. > is not the quality of zen there to No, it has nothing to do with Zen if you want to talk about the genuine > be seen by anyone? Zen practice. How many words are needed to describe the simplicity of "direct comprehension"? > your point i'm afraid illudes me.... Hundred thousand words for describing a simplicity is not my idea of "simplicity." > what pretence? again you How do you describe "simplicity"? > behave in a presumptuous manner.... > > > a bit presumptious of you is it not? > > As you haven't figured out where I stand, the "presumptious" is yours. > you have made presumptuious statements which i pointed out now please point out > that would be something i *presumed* was true base on what you My second post onward, and each question you asked. > said....you never make clear as to where you stand....i am doing the best i can > with very little.... > > > so what is the answer? > > What is not "real"? > that would be a question? seek your own confirmation. > > > ..but imo you seem to be hung up on illusion > > > > Not like a snake chasing its tail, I hope. > > > sometimes...... > > Your life... > and???? tail"? > > > there are many things that the eye cannot see and the body cannot > > Tao/Zen is a reality that is independent of mind, > explain it as best you can...... random sample of all minds, thus Tao/Zen exists independent of mind. > > > and what exactly is finite?.... > > It terminates at the physical level. > not at the mind level? A touch that can be "felt"? > and other like thoughts.... Sun is burning like a nuclear reactor? > > > > Good question, no longer remember your own statements [which lead to > > > i remember more than i put on.....questions are very useful tools......it > > Yes, the questions were to see how much you do know, and you haven't > rereading the above how can you make such a statement? what sort of "turn insinuation, as what goes around comes around. > > > > Figured. > > > no answer i see........is there an answer? can there be an answer? > > "Figured" that "as in most things but you [i] have no idea what you [i] > you omitted this:...."Believing" is yours, it can be stopped only by you and > to which i responded > "as in most things but i have no idea what i should stop Quote, :) You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen, alt.philosophy.taoism
From: "genein" <gen...@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 23:13:30 GMT
Local: Thurs, Jun 7 2001 3:13 am
Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
news:3B1D8BD2.6794D64A@taomartialarts.com...
> > nothing at first its a question without an answer...thousands of books line bookshelves > The question was "What's Zen, again?" everywhere that attempt to define........why do you ask? considering the context of the post what prompted you to ask? > > but then it snowballed into more nothing...... > [nothing it is,] if you did mean your answer "nez spelled > > but then a > as you continued those cute circular answers, looking for..... > > it has been flickering ever > it never had substance to burn. > > > > and are > > > No, > > well how should i interpret your last post which read:....."How > "be grasped intuitively," perhaps? > > > just to see how real your "excellent sense of reality" is. Care to again, no one can answer that question without knowing the individual human > > > elaborate these statements, "as can most folks......some do not.....", > > > "depends on the folks that one knows i would imagine....."? > > i thought they were obvious....but you questioned (for some inexplicable > The question was about how many people can do "direct comprehendsion"? heart and there are many, one can only extrapolate from those who one does know...... > Here's the quote which lead to this conclusion, > Quote, > > my cat can do that easily, > Yup, a cat does that easily, as it has no illusion about mirrored > > as can most folks......some do not..... > I think you got that backward-some can, but most folks can't. "direct comprehnsion" of what?..........[another leading question] > > > > > The part which you pretended to know. > > > > how do you know i am pretending? > > > "nor is it a treatise on motorcycle maintenence but never the less the > > is it a treatis on motorcycle maintenence? > No. > > is not the quality of zen there to > No, it has nothing to do with Zen if you want to talk about the genuine its essence...another book in the same line is "zen and the art of archery" you seem to harp on minor chords while ignoring the major theme....... > > your point i'm afraid illudes me.... > Hundred thousand words for describing a simplicity is not my idea of > > what pretence? again you > How do you describe "simplicity"? enough for you? > > > > a bit presumptious of you is it not? > > > As you haven't figured out where I stand, the "presumptious" is yours. > > you have made presumptuious statements which i pointed out now please point > You read the statements and thought you understood the conversation. difference, what i think is my opinion and opinions are all that any of us have.......i do not presume you are wrong because i disagree.......that is the art of logical thinking.....or any kind of thinking for that matter...is it not presumptuous of you to consider that i did not understand the conversation but *you* did? how do you arrive this but by a trick of the mind..... and yet you found fault in all questions that i have put to you with the same idea in mind......> > > > > > Not like a snake chasing its tail, I hope. another judement with no substance i am afraid.....and the analogy would be a > > > > sometimes...... > > > Your life... > > and???? > It is your prerogative to "sometimes" live "like a snake chasing its snake *swallowing* his tail......> > > > > there are many things that the eye cannot see and the body cannot > > > Tao/Zen is a reality that is independent of mind, > > explain it as best you can...... > As Tao/Zen exists independent of you and I, and you and I are just a zen...taoism is not a thing that can exist independently nor zen..... > > > > and what exactly is finite?.... > > > It terminates at the physical level. > > not at the mind level? > Mind creates illusions, cannot be trusted unless it is trued. mind creates illusions and what would these illusions be? > > > > > > for you it "ends" since this is what you believe... i think you are talking of very common experiences. > > > > > If you'd like to believe that. > > > > it's what i infer from your posts...... > > > Not sure how you drew the inference, what was my premise? > > what terminates at the physical level.... > A touch that can be "felt"? > > and other like thoughts.... > Sun is burning like a nuclear reactor? > > > > i remember more than i put on.....questions are very useful i always read my posts, i think you should defend what you say with actual tools......it > > does > > > > not always imply not understanding.......and how many here actually know > > > > precisely what it is they are talking about? > > > Yes, the questions were to see how much you do know, and you haven't > > rereading the above how can you make such a statement? what sort of "turn > You may want to read your own posts first before you make such an explained quotes and it was not an insinuation it was a direct statement...... lost in space i imagine.... earthly business being > > > > > Yup, sounds just like those high spirit seeking turists who are you seem to see cuteness no matter what you read....i guess it helps in some > > > > > wondering why they come up here to get jammed in the traffic for. > > > > something like but not quite...... > > > So, what is exactly you are saying? > > it must be grasped intuitively for its best effect..... > Cute. way.... do you feel that you are some master authority on zen/taoism.....? in that case You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen, alt.philosophy.taoism
From: Ichin Shen <taichiski...@taomartialarts.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:32:01 GMT
Local: Thurs, Jun 7 2001 12:32 pm
Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
genein wrote: Without an answer, the question has no meaning, yet, Zen has existed for > "Ichin Shen" <taichiski...@taomartialarts.com> wrote in message > > The question was "What's Zen, again?" > its a question without an answer... more than a couple of thousand years, > thousands of books line bookshelves which began with Sakyamuni (so-call the founder of Buddhism) who did the > everywhere that attempt to define........ "special transmission outside the scriptural teaching" with a smile without a word spoken. 28 transmission later Bodhi-Dharma came to China followed the same tradition transmitted to Hui-Ke, the second patriarch of Chinese Chan-Buddhism, which after six transmission to Hui-Neng, who set up the Chinese Chan-Buddhism tradition by declaring "direct pointing to the heart, find oneself's own the Buddha nature and become a Buddha," which again without writing/setting up any scriptures. What thousands books can do to define something such as lack of wording as Chan/Zen? > why do you ask? considering the To see whether or not you do know [something about Zen] or just being > context of the post what prompted you to ask? mouthy. > > > but then it snowballed into more nothing...... > > [nothing it is,] if you did mean your answer "nez spelled > i have answered that question.... > > > but then a > > as you continued those cute circular answers, > if you saw cuteness in my answers then perhaps it was cuteness that you were meaning is what I call "cute." > > > it has been flickering ever > > it never had substance to burn. > correct > > > > > and are > > > > No, > > > well how should i interpret your last post which read:....."How > > "be grasped intuitively," perhaps? > one does not grasp intutively a head or foot count...just count. Guess you just don't have the wit. Don't think that "thinking lot" can be "very intuitive." > > I think you got that backward-some can, but most folks can't. > just for the record, you are quoting yourself.... The absolute reality [of Zen]. Without knowing what's Zen, how do you know the "quality" of Zen? True Zen practice may reflect the essence of Zen, thus leads one into the realm of enlightenment. > another book in the same line is "zen and the art of archery" you Yes, it is a good book, which described Master archer Kenzo Awa "demo" > seem to harp on minor chords while ignoring the major theme....... the ultimate simplicity with two shots in one hole, not a word spoken. Another good book is "Zen Buddhism," by D.T. Suzuki, if you're really > > > your point i'm afraid illudes me.... > > Hundred thousand words for describing a simplicity is not my idea of > your point still illudes me...who is describing? > > > what pretence? again you > > How do you describe "simplicity"? > non presumptuousness for starters, non judgemental in nature......"simple" As you are not quite sure what I was talking about. There were a lot of holes/disjoint in you questions, as being pointed out. > > > > > > Not like a snake chasing its tail, I hope. > > > > > sometimes...... > > > > Your life... > > > and???? > > It is your prerogative to "sometimes" live "like a snake chasing its > another judement with no substance i am afraid.....and the analogy would be a think? > > > > > there are many things that the eye cannot see and the body cannot > > > > Tao/Zen is a reality that is independent of mind, > > > explain it as best you can...... > > As Tao/Zen exists independent of you and I, and you and I are just a > this is just a very common understanding of mind, not necessarily taoist or > > > > > and what exactly is finite?.... > > > > It terminates at the physical level. > > > not at the mind level? > > Mind creates illusions, cannot be trusted unless it is trued. > who is it that does not trust? how does the mind come to the conclusion that the conceited egotism taking hold on it. ... You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: jaybuzin0...@cs.com (Jaybuzin0000)
Date: 07 Jun 2001 11:54:28 GMT
Local: Thurs, Jun 7 2001 3:54 pm
Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
ichin and genein were playing dao\zen ball:
[...s] g: >> do you feel that you are some master authority on zen/taoism.....? in that w'hat forms on the left? >>case the line forms on the right -jest curious You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen, alt.philosophy.taoism
From: "genein" <gen...@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:55:08 GMT
Local: Fri, Jun 8 2001 7:55 pm
Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
"Ichin Shen" <taichiski...@taomartialarts.com> wrote in message actually not.....but i cannot put my finger on the book where i read of its > > > The question was "What's Zen, again?" > > its a question without an answer... > Without an answer, the question has no meaning, yet, Zen has existed for inception it was a product of chinese chan but the zen that we know is taken from the japanese and falls very much short of a couple of thousand years.....but how important are dates? > > thousands of books line bookshelves > which began with Sakyamuni (so-call the founder of Buddhism) who did the in book form of course and thousands of words.... > > why do you ask? considering the > To see whether or not you do know [something about Zen] or just being > > > > but then it snowballed into more nothing...... > > > [nothing it is,] if you did mean your answer "nez spelled > > i have answered that question.... > without meaning. to insult you of course but i know no other way to convey to you that when one does not understand, it does not follow the other is at fault.... > > if you saw cuteness in my answers then perhaps it was cuteness that you you are being once again judgemental........ were > > looking for..... > Giving an answer without answering the question or an answer without > > > > it has been flickering ever > > > it never had substance to burn. > > correct > You got this one right. and once again you judge relative to your own knowledge.......very un-zen like. > > > The question was about how many people can do "direct comprehendsion"? i will admit to that.....i generally attempt to take great care not to exceed > > > the answer of "most folks can't" was quite obvious. > > again, no one can answer that question without knowing the individual human > Guess you just don't have the wit. my "authority" rather than condemn others unjustly......lack of wit in this case is good.... > > > > my cat can do that easily, > > > Yup, a cat does that easily, as it has no illusion about mirrored > > > > as can most folks......some do not..... > > my good friends.....yes they are a thinking lot....and very intuitive.... > Don't think that "thinking lot" can be "very intuitive." right now.......it is hoped that is...... > > > I think you got that backward-some can, but most folks can't. > > just for the record, you are quoting yourself.... > Those were the actual exchanges in earlier posts of this thread. > > "direct comprehnsion" of what?..........[another leading question] > The absolute reality [of Zen]. once again you are assuming that somehow you are in the "master" seat and of course in command of all that is true.......... > > another book in the same line is "zen and the art of archery" you > Yes, it is a good book, which described Master archer Kenzo Awa "demo" > Another good book is "Zen Buddhism," by D.T. Suzuki, if you're really hesitate to give you a list of the books that line my shelf since i fear that you would take this information and based on your past posts somehow malign my intent.....but this too will give you fodder for your zen "canon"..... > > > > your point i'm afraid illudes me.... > > > Hundred thousand words for describing a simplicity is not my idea of > > your point still illudes me...who is describing? > The author of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." himself and his situations......just as one note cannot hope to give the same feeling from beethoven 9th as an entire score....... > > > > what pretence? again you > > > How do you describe "simplicity"? > > non presumptuousness for starters, non judgemental in nature......"simple" > Only if you can do just that. > > what i think is not a presumption of what i feel you to be.......big no one can be quite sure of the intent of another...especially in newsgroups > > difference, what i think is my opinion and opinions are all that any of us > > have.......i do not presume you are wrong because i disagree.......that is the > > art of logical thinking.....or any kind of thinking for that matter...is it not > > presumptuous of you to consider that i did not understand the conversation but > > *you* did? how do you arrive this but by a trick of the mind..... > As you are not quite sure what I was talking about. > > > > > What is not "real"? according to *your* lights.........once again, judgemental......... > > > > that would be a question? > > > As the answer is quite obvious, the question mark is to encourage you to > > and yet you found fault in all questions that i have put to you with the > There were a lot of holes/disjoint in you questions, as being pointed > > > It is your prerogative to "sometimes" live "like a snake chasing its yes but too many analogies spoil the broth. > > > tail"? > > another judement with no substance i am afraid.....and the analogy would be > The snake have to catch its tail before it can "swallow" it, don't you > > > As Tao/Zen exists independent of you and I, and you and I are just a without mind, tao or zen (a product of mind) would have no meaning....but it > > >random sample of all minds, thus Tao/Zen exists independent of mind. > > this is just a very common understanding of mind, not necessarily taoist or > Then, what Tao/Zen should depend on to exist? does not depend on mind but mind is needed.... > > > > not at the mind level? and again who is it that does not trust?.....mind? > > > Mind creates illusions, cannot be trusted unless it is trued. > > who is it that does not trust? how does the mind come to the conclusion > Mind is not to be trusted, as it breeds images/illusions in its favor as ... 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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen, alt.philosophy.taoism
From: Ichin Shen <taichiski...@taomartialarts.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:27:22 GMT
Local: Fri, Jun 8 2001 10:27 pm
Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
genein wrote: Not even that, "Zen" to you is only a word spelled in three letters in > "Ichin Shen" <taichiski...@taomartialarts.com> wrote in message > > > > The question was "What's Zen, again?" > > > its a question without an answer... > > Without an answer, the question has no meaning, yet, Zen has existed for > actually not.....but i cannot put my finger on the book where i read of its English, but meaning? "Zen" is only an English translation from Japanese; in Japanese, "Zen" > but how important are dates? Not as important as the practice, but a history may show you an environment how the practice came about, which may lead, hopefully, you a glimpse of what Zen is. It will not do you anything, if you're not going to read it, or read it without knowing what is in there. > > > why do you ask? considering the > > To see whether or not you do know [something about Zen] or just being > your terms describe your intent..... > > > > > but then it snowballed into more nothing...... > > > > [nothing it is,] if you did mean your answer "nez spelled > > > i have answered that question.... > > without meaning. > to a bushman a dialog by einstein may well have no meaning.......not intended you are not communicating. > > > if you saw cuteness in my answers then perhaps it was cuteness that you > > Giving an answer without answering the question or an answer without > you are being once again judgemental........ > > > > > it has been flickering ever > > > > it never had substance to burn. > > > correct > > You got this one right. > and you too is see........what would be the score? While you don't know what's Zen, what is un-Zen like? What's "intuit," again? > > > > The question was about how many people can do "direct comprehendsion"? > > > again, no one can answer that question without knowing the individual human > > Guess you just don't have the wit. > i will admit to that..... > i generally attempt to take great care not to exceed and be proud of it make it even worse. > my "authority" rather than condemn others unjustly......lack of wit in this > case is good.... > > > > > my cat can do that easily, > > > > Yup, a cat does that easily, as it has no illusion about mirrored > > > > > as can most folks......some do not..... > > > my good friends.....yes they are a thinking lot....and very intuitive.... > > Don't think that "thinking lot" can be "very intuitive." > why not......? there are levels of thinking, and thinking is what you are doing Yet, you don't know that Japanese Zen was transmitted from China, > my interest in zen is a long one.......i Books, or a knowledge/practice for that matter, is not a product that > hesitate to give you a list of the books that line my shelf you pay for it and take it home then it becomes yours, > since i fear that if you don't study/practice to digest what's in it and turn it to a > you would take this information and based on your past posts somehow malign my > intent.....but this too will give you fodder for your zen "canon"..... "physical" knowledge of your own, it is just like the excess stuff that piled up in your garage, which serve no purpose but occupy space. Only to reflect what's in the questions and answers. ... You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen, alt.philosophy.taoism
From: Chris Ellis <lasom...@chartertn.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 14:31:47 -0400
Local: Sun, Jun 3 2001 10:31 pm
Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
True that is isn't a good idea to be caught up in illusions but one must remember
that a mirrored image, although it is a mirrored image is still a reflection of something that is real. If one steps into a hall of mirrors one can see many sides of a true image. -Chris- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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OT: the random and free choice
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: jaybuzin0...@cs.com (Jaybuzin0000)
Date: 01 Jun 2001 12:00:45 GMT
Local: Fri, Jun 1 2001 4:00 pm
Subject: Re: OT: the random and free choice
viewpoint tossed:
>Thought thrown out for discussion among those interested: I'm not sure I agree with that. >Assertion: >The concept of random chance is required in order to implement "free There are some passages in the (taoist) texts suggesting that fate is an element of reality. Invoking a deterministic view may or may not take something away from free choice. What if it's all pov? >Logic: I'm not sure I see the logic in that. >1. The concept of "free choice" must guarantee the concept of Are you saying that if there is free choice then folks are free to be theistic or atheistic? >2. Lacking the concept of "random chance" the concept of atheism I don't think this is necessarily true. >falls apart. >From this viewpoint it makes a certain sense; is it asserted to be If the "givens" are accepted >truth? the conclusion may follow. Who actually does assert such things? > No claims made, except that it seems like some interesting furry sure, why knot? >discussion could come from it. {:-]))) You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: musc...@planet.nl (musician)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 06:35:48 GMT
Local: Tues, Jun 5 2001 10:35 am
Subject: Re: OT: the random and free choice
On Thu, 31 May 2001 18:17:13 -0600, viewpoint <pres...@grove.org>
wrote: if this place is "self-soing" then what you do is what you've chosen to bring to this place this is the principle of choice in each moment random chance does not exist because every moment is the result of the so I guess I'm trying to say that - imo - random chance is not musician You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Weekly TTC: Ch. 9
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: jaybuzin0...@cs.com (Jaybuzin0000)
Date: 01 Jun 2001 12:09:41 GMT
Local: Fri, Jun 1 2001 4:09 pm
Subject: Re: Weekly TTC: Ch. 9
IS wrote: [...s] >JB wrote: while somethings are looked into, most things are taken for granted. each day on the news; mountains are seen erupting, or rivers overflowing, or this\that dramatic tragedy is unfolding while most simply watch with interested-disinterest. >> or if they have found tao, or if they ought to most folks are "there" already >> be seeking tao. >> They are usually beyond a great many things. >It is, that's why there's so few of them. and know that they know deep-d'own. when things such as G-d, Tao, or Tod are discussed, they are not even disinterested. >> >A superman doesn't not need advantage, as he is the advantage. CT's "perfect man" is an illusion? >> How does one become a superman? >In an illusion. >> >Are you sure you are into the Tao-Chia not Tao-Chiao? simply being me. >> eye ain't necessarily >Committing to noncommittal? >> As a metaphysician, th'air are m'any things some folks get tangled in >> in a bag of tricks. >Wordswords? the mesh of heavenswords is wide and nothing escapes. >> >Or you have to ah, >> >read CT the western bible way? >> what might t'hat be? >Believing whatever it said in the books? eye seas. Many Tanks! {:-]))) You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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